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I dont mind having some limits, but I do think the limits are to low, i've sold skull staffs for over 1,5 year now and I still have 11 bps left, I will never get rid of them. I also have 3 bp golden rings and 3 bp ring of the sky, which as far as I know they cant even be sold. Skull staffs are also heavily nerfed in price and I think atleast 20-30 SS per month would be fair
I dont mind having some limits, but I do think the limits are to low, i've sold skull staffs for over 1,5 year now and I still have 11 bps left, I will never get rid of them. I also have 3 bp golden rings and 3 bp ring of the sky, which as far as I know they cant even be sold. Skull staffs are also heavily nerfed in price and I think atleast 20-30 SS per month would be fair
But that's the whole point of this limit - you alone can't sell the number of staves that you produce as such a high level. In order to do that, you need to deal with other players. For example, you could host a free djinn quest service, help five players to complete it and then request them to sell your things. You could also try to find people who hunt other monsters than you and exchange your loot for theirs. You, the high levels, could also work more for the community, because the more players overall = the more players who can trade with djinn and help you sell your stuff. Again, this is the whole point. You can have it sold, but you're not self-sufficient and you still need other players, unlike it was in the original game where people could just endlessly hunt -> sell loot to npc -> buy supplies from npc -> hunt, without even talking to anyone.
It's not only that. Originally, the intoduction of djinns (and later rashid and other such npcs) basically killed player-player trade/interaction. They were needed to maintain the value of items on old worlds where their supply exceeded demand, but eventually they caused all trading to take place with npcs, which is not beneficial for either the economy or the gameplay itself. Players became kind of self-sufficient because of this, they could just exp and exp and exp without even exchanging messages with anyone. We don't want to go in this direction. Hence, here those items can also be sold to npc, which preserves their value, but you still have to trade the surplus with other players or change your hunting spot from time to time.
Can you explain to a novel economist how, there being endless of backpacks of skull staves on the server being good for the server economy and interaction?
How many newcomers are there at Tibiantis at this point in time a month? How many in need of a Skull Staff? 2? 3?
If people could sell their surplus items which the amount of players on Tibiantis will NEVER be able to fill, the ones that are sold to players would at least be worth SOMETHING.. I bought my skull staff for 3k. The guy probably spent 50k to get that. Sure, people are not supposed to make infinite amounts of profit, but is that really legit? Are we not suppose to make ANYTHING back in game? To me that just sounds like a bad business model Kay, because, in the end, you never did put a quota the same way on piggies... did you?
Player Level: 8 Profession: Paladin Residence: Thais
Posts: 1
Re: Remove the limit on sellable djinn items
I am not at the point I can use the djinns but I didnt realize this server has a limit. I get the idea to encourage trade and like the goal but there's just not enough people I think to make that actually happen. I wish I could sell a simple plate set, or dwarven shield (only things i can really loot right now) but you'll spend days trying to find a buyer. Based on the other responses in here too, I feel like whenever I can start hunting better things i am just going to get stuck hording a lot of the loot as well.
I actually skipped many tiers of equipment because I felt I was better off only buying the best because I knew I would have a lot of trouble selling any of the intermediate tiers of equipment because it would be such a struggle to find buyers.
Can you explain to a novel economist how, there being endless of backpacks of skull staves on the server being good for the server economy and interaction?
I didn't say that it's good, I said that it's better than it would've been with the original design. There are no perfect solutions without completely redesigning the game, which we don't intend to do. And in what way it is better - I have already explained in the previous posts. You cannot just keep grinding in the best spot endlessly, but you have to do some planning and change from time to time. Otherwise, you'll need other players to exchange your items with, which encourages interaction and pro-community activities (e.g. hosting a djinn quest service). Also, the "printing" of money is smaller and/or more spread out over time, which slows down the inflation and keeps the price of premium piggy bank on reasonable level.
I bought my skull staff for 3k. The guy probably spent 50k to get that. Sure, people are not supposed to make infinite amounts of profit, but is that really legit?
You need to consider that in this version character power increases almost linearly. At your level, killing a warlock may seem like a costly challenge, so you expect a big payback, but for someone else it might take just as little as 3-4 sd runes. Therefore, the average cost of looting a skull staff for the high levels is not anywhere near that. But most of all, they didn't spend money - they used runes that were created out of nothing. That's not the same, because even if those runes were bought that money is still on the server in hands of players.
You are, and you do. You're just not supposed to have a perpetuum mobile in the best spots in game (exp/h wise). At least not alone, without contribution of other players like it was in the original game at some point.
If people could sell their surplus items which the amount of players on Tibiantis will NEVER be able to fill, the ones that are sold to players would at least be worth SOMETHING.
How is it not worth something? You bought that skull staff, right? And you can sell it to an NPC once you complete the quest yourself.
you never did put a quota the same way on piggies... did you?
We didn't have to, because piggies cannot be sold to NPC at all. The trade of premium piggy bank relies solely on other players, i.e. it only has value as long as someone wants to buy it, and is only worth as much as they are willing to offer. Per game mechanics piggies are also useless and don't add any value. You can't buy 1000 piggies and go hunt with them or sell them to an NPC and buy supplies. If you buy a very large number of piggies at once they will likely be only gathering dust in your depot for quite some time due to insufficient demand (just like someone's skull staves) or you will be forced to let them go "half-free".
Also, consider that if not for those limits and other adjustments that we've put in, there would be much more money on the server, thus the price of piggies would be significantly higher. We've seen that in other oldschool servers in the past, where their piggy-equivalent went much more expensive in way shorter time. Would it be any better for the server's economy if piggy was traded now for let's say 200-300k?
I am not at the point I can use the djinns but I didnt realize this server has a limit. I get the idea to encourage trade and like the goal but there's just not enough people I think to make that actually happen. I wish I could sell a simple plate set, or dwarven shield (only things i can really loot right now) but you'll spend days trying to find a buyer. Based on the other responses in here too, I feel like whenever I can start hunting better things i am just going to get stuck hording a lot of the loot as well.
I actually skipped many tiers of equipment because I felt I was better off only buying the best because I knew I would have a lot of trouble selling any of the intermediate tiers of equipment because it would be such a struggle to find buyers.
With how easy it is to get a stock of dwarven shields and plate armors, you can't expect there to be many buyers for them, it only works in the first days of the server, but they are sellable to NPCs. As for the better stuff - only certain items are limited, most of the "intermediate" are really not (like knight set or crown set, or whichever you considered - there's no limit). Also, these limits are monthly, which means that they reset every month. They shouldn't be bothersome in casual gaming, but only if you want to grind in one spot all days like crazy. For example, you can sell 5 giant swords and 3 pairs of steel boots monthly. It means that if, in some levels, you want hunt behemoths with two of your friends - all together you will be able to loot and sell 15 giant swords and 9 pairs of steel boots every month (giant swords can also be exchanged for stone skin amulets which sell pretty well to players). Therefore, the limit should not be your concern at all, unless you're seriously planning to hunt behemoths day in day out. (By the way, mind that originally in this version steel boots were not sellable at all.)
There are two reasons why some players are "stuck hording a lot of the loot". Firstly, because that's what they were doing for a long time - power gaming and pushing the game to the... well, limits. And secondly, it took over two years to first complete the quest, which means that for all that time they were not making use of the possibility of e.g. selling 15 skull staves every month, but it didn't stop them from hunting warlocks excessively meanwhile. Which is why they now need to slow down more in order to get rid of that old loot over time. As Xioniz said, these limits also existed to prevent the discovery of the djinn quest at the time from immediately resulting in a huge amount of money being printed all at once. But again, for you, as a relatively new player and a low level, it shouldn't be any concern, because nowadays the way to complete the quest is already well-known, and the limits are adjusted not to bother you in any non-extreme scenario.
Can you explain to a novel economist how, there being endless of backpacks of skull staves on the server being good for the server economy and interaction?
I didn't say that it's good, I said that it's better than it would've been with the original design. There are no perfect solutions without completely redesigning the game, which we don't intend to do. And in what way it is better - I have already explained in the previous posts. You cannot just keep grinding in the best spot endlessly, but you have to do some planning and change from time to time. Otherwise, you'll need other players to exchange your items with, which encourages interaction and pro-community activities (e.g. hosting a djinn quest service). Also, the "printing" of money is smaller and/or more spread out over time, which slows down the inflation and keeps the price of premium piggy bank on reasonable level.
I bought my skull staff for 3k. The guy probably spent 50k to get that. Sure, people are not supposed to make infinite amounts of profit, but is that really legit?
You need to consider that in this version character power increases almost linearly. At your level, killing a warlock may seem like a costly challenge, so you expect a big payback, but for someone else it might take just as little as 3-4 sd runes. Therefore, the average cost of looting a skull staff for the high levels is not anywhere near that. But most of all, they didn't spend money - they used runes that were created out of nothing. That's not the same, because even if those runes were bought that money is still on the server in hands of players. [/qoute]
I am considering that, that's why it's pissing me off you're running that argument, while letting people with financial means printing money through pigs, doing the very same thing you're trying to prevent by not letting people sell their skull staffs at djinn... The prices at Djinns were already very low compared to what you spend at any place in Tibia 7.4. And runes isn't created out of "thin air". They're single handedly the most valuable resource in the entire game, and currently the only thing with an actual value.
You are, and you do. You're just not supposed to have a perpetuum mobile in the best spots in game (exp/h wise). At least not alone, without contribution of other players like it was in the original game at some point.[/qoute]
Sure, then why can I just spend 100 euros and keep this perpetuum mobile going if the argument is trying to stop exactly that kind of powergaming, ruining the balance of an oldskool server? Follow up question, how does this connect to the backpack of skull staffs someone is hording since 2021 (worth 2 pigs currently, btw, seems reasonable).
If people could sell their surplus items which the amount of players on Tibiantis will NEVER be able to fill, the ones that are sold to players would at least be worth SOMETHING.
How is it not worth something? You bought that skull staff, right? And you can sell it to an NPC once you complete the quest yourself.[/qoute]
you never did put a quota the same way on piggies... did you?
We didn't have to, because piggies cannot be sold to NPC at all. The trade of premium piggy bank relies solely on other players, i.e. it only has value as long as someone wants to buy it, and is only worth as much as they are willing to offer. Per game mechanics piggies are also useless and don't add any value. You can't buy 1000 piggies and go hunt with them or sell them to an NPC and buy supplies. If you buy a very large number of piggies at once they will likely be only gathering dust in your depot for quite some time due to insufficient demand (just like someone's skull staves) or you will be forced to let them go "half-free".
Also, consider that if not for those limits and other adjustments that we've put in, there would be much more money on the server, thus the price of piggies would be significantly higher. We've seen that in other oldschool servers in the past, where their piggy-equivalent went much more expensive in way shorter time. Would it be any better for the server's economy if piggy was traded now for let's say 200-300k?
I am not at the point I can use the djinns but I didnt realize this server has a limit. I get the idea to encourage trade and like the goal but there's just not enough people I think to make that actually happen. I wish I could sell a simple plate set, or dwarven shield (only things i can really loot right now) but you'll spend days trying to find a buyer. Based on the other responses in here too, I feel like whenever I can start hunting better things i am just going to get stuck hording a lot of the loot as well.
I actually skipped many tiers of equipment because I felt I was better off only buying the best because I knew I would have a lot of trouble selling any of the intermediate tiers of equipment because it would be such a struggle to find buyers.
With how easy it is to get a stock of dwarven shields and plate armors, you can't expect there to be many buyers for them, it only works in the first days of the server, but they are sellable to NPCs. As for the better stuff - only certain items are limited, most of the "intermediate" are really not (like knight set or crown set, or whichever you considered - there's no limit). Also, these limits are monthly, which means that they reset every month. They shouldn't be bothersome in casual gaming, but only if you want to grind in one spot all days like crazy. For example, you can sell 5 giant swords and 3 pairs of steel boots monthly. It means that if, in some levels, you want hunt behemoths with two of your friends - all together you will be able to loot and sell 15 giant swords and 9 pairs of steel boots every month (giant swords can also be exchanged for stone skin amulets which sell pretty well to players). Therefore, the limit should not be your concern at all, unless you're seriously planning to hunt behemoths day in day out. (By the way, mind that originally in this version steel boots were not sellable at all.)
There are two reasons why some players are "stuck hording a lot of the loot". Firstly, because that's what they were doing for a long time - power gaming and pushing the game to the... well, limits. And secondly, it took over two years to first complete the quest, which means that for all that time they were not making use of the possibility of e.g. selling 15 skull staves every month, but it didn't stop them from hunting warlocks excessively meanwhile. Which is why they now need to slow down more in order to get rid of that old loot over time. As Xioniz said, these limits also existed to prevent the discovery of the djinn quest at the time from immediately resulting in a huge amount of money being printed all at once. But again, for you, as a relatively new player and a low level, it shouldn't be any concern, because nowadays the way to complete the quest is already well-known, and the limits are adjusted not to bother you in any non-extreme scenario.
I see how you reason but you're fooling yourself. You're trying to prevent people printing money, but you're still letting them. If this was always about stopping power-gamers progress, then why didn't you just put a level restriction each month?
Nobody buys piggies which "gathers dust". They buy them when someone writes "buy 20 piggies" on chat, and poof, they just made over 1.000.000 cash GP in game doing nothing. Sure, the piggies "is made out of thin air" as you so nicely put it, but so is everything in Tibia?
Now, who is more harmful to the economy; the level 20 druid who just printed 1 million cash or the guy who actually spent several hours hunting something, gaining loot which he effectively cannot sell for, really no clear reason... I mean, the limit is really only punishing the individual isn't it? And for what? Getting too much exp? Having too much luck? Is that really logical?
Now, who is more harmful to the economy; the level 20 druid who just printed 1 million cash or the guy who actually spent several hours hunting something, gaining loot which he effectively cannot sell for, really no clear reason... I mean, the limit is really only punishing the individual isn't it? And for what? Getting too much exp? Having too much luck? Is that really logical?
That money is not printed, it already existed on the server in someone's pocket. Piggies don't create or add any wealth to the server.
You're trying to prevent people printing money, but you're still letting them.
We don't want to prevent it, we only want to balance it to prevent the collapse of the economy. Just like in real life, money printing happens either way, but shouldn't be done excessively, right?
Like I said, there are no perfect solutions. It's a natural process that with the game progress there are higher and higher levels and more and more items and gold. We are not trying to stop it, that's not the point. We don't want to change the whole game either. We are just making some tweaks to slow down the overall and usual server aging process.
If this was always about stopping power-gamers progress, then why didn't you just put a level restriction each month?
Because that's not the goal. We don't want to stop players from leveling, only slow them down a bit, if anything - not artifically though, but naturally by better balancing those few very best hunting spots. We also want to encourage more cooperation and interaction with other players.
I mean, the limit is really only punishing the individual isn't it? And for what? Getting too much exp? Having too much luck? Is that really logical?
It's not 'punishing' anyone, just slightly changing the 'meta' gameplay. Please mind that most of the items that we've put those limits on - originally they were not even sellable at all.
Now, who is more harmful to the economy; the level 20 druid who just printed 1 million cash or the guy who actually spent several hours hunting something, gaining loot which he effectively cannot sell for, really no clear reason... I mean, the limit is really only punishing the individual isn't it? And for what? Getting too much exp? Having too much luck? Is that really logical?
That money is not printed, it already existed on the server in someone's pocket. Piggies don't create or add any wealth to the server.
You're trying to prevent people printing money, but you're still letting them.
We don't want to prevent it, we only want to balance it to prevent the collapse of the economy. Just like in real life, money printing happens either way, but shouldn't be done excessively.
Like I said, there are no perfect solutions. It's a natural process that with the game progress there are higher and higher levels and more and more items and gold. We are not trying to stop it, that's not the point. We don't want to change the whole game either. We are just making some tweaks to slow down the overall and usual server aging process.
If this was always about stopping power-gamers progress, then why didn't you just put a level restriction each month?
Because that's not the goal. We don't want to stop players from leveling. If anything, we'd only slow them down a bit, but naturally not artificially. And most of all, we want to encourage more cooperation and interaction with other players as well as diversification of hunting spots.
I mean, the limit is really only punishing the individual isn't it? And for what? Getting too much exp? Having too much luck? Is that really logical?
It's not 'punishing' anyone, just slightly changing the way to play. Most of the items that are limited originally were not even sellable at all.
yeah, slowing them down naturally would mean removing the possibility of injecting real life cash to bypass any limitation you've put in place to try and achieve that exact same goal.... you can argue all you want but you can't get around that. it's a paradox...
the djinn limit makes no sense in the current state of the server.
want to increase cooperation? stop listening to the fanaticals who says no to stuff like shared exp? stuff like that that actually SHOULD have been implemented in 7.4. but now we're getting offtopic.
slowing them down naturally would mean removing the possibility of injecting real life cash
Sadly, this is not possible with the way the game was designed. If a game allows free flow of items or services (such as e.g. blocking, healing, etc.), players will always be able to gain an unfair advantage over others. Admins can't stop anyone from paying or giving another player some other benefit in real life for doing X in game. Tibiantis is no exception; the black market has always existed in this game and exists in every other OT too. We don't delude ourselves into thinking that we'll achieve some kind of utopia here. Still, it doesn't mean that any balance tweaks are pointless. If they can improve something even a little, then they do make sense. We need to take an adequate (realistic) measure here. It will never be perfect, but we do what we can to make it as good as possible, and if we compare the "current state of the server" with what every other OT looks/looked like after a few years of existence, we can see that it's not so bad afer all.
slowing them down naturally would mean removing the possibility of injecting real life cash
Sadly, this is not possible with the way the game was designed. If a game allows free flow of items or services (such as e.g. blocking, healing, etc.), players will always be able to gain an unfair advantage over others. Admins can't stop anyone from paying or giving another player some other benefit in real life for doing X in game. Tibiantis is no exception; the black market has always existed in this game and exists in every other OT too. We don't delude ourselves into thinking that we'll achieve some kind of utopia here. Still, it doesn't mean that any balance tweaks are pointless. If they can improve something even a little, then they do make sense. We need to take an adequate (realistic) measure here. It will never be perfect, but we do what we can to make it as good as possible, and if we compare the "current state of the server" with what every other OT looks/looked like after a few years of existence, we can see that it's not so bad after all.
' Rationally there are really no upsides to keeping a limit on djinn items. There really aren't. It doesn't slow anyone down since there are other ways to print money. The amount of amassed skull staves in gp is NOTHING compared to the piggy market (which, again, is totally unregulated).
I don't understand why you want to involve black and white-thinking and utopias? You seem intelligent but at this point I feel you're really only trying to convince yourself - not me?
since you want to talk about Utopias... Imagine server costs and labour wasn't a real thing. Now, would you still implement the premium pig as a sellable feature on a new server you're opening because it is supposedly good for the in-game economy?
The in-game availability of the premium pig is nothing else but a cash grab and it is by far, the main reason why ALL low rate OTS are unbalanced and have been and always WILL be. I've played them all and I've been a big part of the OTLands community since early 2000s. You were blessed with the binaries and you did a good thing here, but honestly - it could have been perfect.
I am still waiting for a server with no pay to win pig - will it ever happen? I mean, the question is truly for you and that other guy who has the real binaries...
